Topic: Kickstarter?

[Unai]

Have you guys considered funding this game as a Kikckstarter project?

I wonder if you could rise enough money to work fully on the game for a a year (or whatever) and just get it done.

[fandango]

actually, there already IS the option of funding the game: http://www.barnettcollege.com/donate.htm

anything that goes further MIGHT bring a rather quick end to the teams efforts, since making enough money to pay their lives for a year, as you suggested, might be considered "earning money by unlicencedly using a lucasarts merchandise"...

[Unai]

Well, I have donated money there (Yeah! I'm there, 14th in the list ) but the way Kickstarter works might make people give money more easily.

Actually, industry veteran Tim Schafer broke the kickstarter record with more than 3 million $
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/doublefine/double-fine-adventure

I'm not sure if you are familiar with crowdfunding, but you set a goal, and if it's not reached people get money back.

As far as "earning money by unlicencedly using a lucasarts merchandise" this is something that it's probably better answered by a lawyer, but I'd say that as far as all the money you collect is spent in working on the project there's no earning at all... right?

[fandango]

yep, i know about crowdfunding - and i think its a very good way to get projects - yes, like this one, too - started.

about the legal perspective of crowdfunding THIS very project: It is true, neither of us is a lawyer, so it is all just speculation. Still, if FoY-Team "makes a living" (and thats what paying a year of their live is...) out of using LECs merchandise, it might well get to where i was hinting at. Maybe im overly worried. Still, I keep hoping FoY will be released withOUT the C&D Letter. I just think its better to consider POSSIBLE outcomes before running into them. After all, it still is the teams, and the teams ONLY decision to make.

Edit: added the "withOUT"... sorry if this post was not making sense

[Mark]

Thanks Unai. This has been suggested in the past by a few individuals and some other ways too. I'll try and summarize it for you.

OVERALL
It would be great to be able to pay the team a salary that matches their own now to get them to work on the game for a few months. Ultimately that IS the only way to get the game done in a short amount of time - that, and rent a place for the team to stay and make it... The question is how would you go about making that happen - legally - when you are working on intellectual property you don't own but a gigantic untouchable Hollywood studio does.

KICKSTARTER STYLE FUNDING
There is no denying this kind of thing could help with a project like ours. But it's highly unlikely we could ever attach a Kickstarter style setup to FoY itself. I'd need to speak to someone properly about it but I get the feeling even if the game is not for profit the fact a development budget has been formed by the general public could still present legal issues. That said, someone assured my Kickstarter IS just a form of donations.

LEC FUNDING
The idea has been put forward several times that we just get in touch with LucasArts, ask them to fund the project and then give it to them to sell. Or some variation of that. Again, in terms of getting the game made that could be very good - in terms of creative control, that could be a total disaster.

PRIVATE FUNDING
Some individuals have hinted at covering a monthly wage for the team, but I think that was just passing comments. Who'd be serious/crazy enough to do that, really? Still, private investment is one of the best ways to cover the production costs, but we need a seriously dippy millionaire to consider it...

THE SOLUTIONS:
1) STAY FREE OF EVERYTHING. No-one is paid to make the game, no-one ever has to play the game, but the game gets made slower, over free, unpaid time from the developers. This is how we run it at the moment. There are limited legal issues (really just the use of the name and likeness Indiana Jones).

2) GO AHEAD AND RISK PROSECUTION. Run some kind of funding campaign directly related to FoY, risk being shut down. OR, risk the contact of LEC and ask if they want to fund and sell the game - but again risk a C&D.

3) DO THINGS IN THE BACKGROUND. This is my newest solution, and could herald some new answers. I'm doing what I can to get my business, game studio called Screen 7, up and running properly. If people support the company and the products then I'll be able to set aside a budget for getting something like FoY done. I could effectively, through the company, run an in-direct campaign, ie "Kickstart A Game Project" and then that would go into FoY, if that makes sense? So for now I'm hoping people will support the business, and if any Kickstart option looks possible - I think it would have to be more like a "development grant" through a studio rather than a direct cash-injection to the FoY project.

As always though, certainly listening out for ideas. And I know pay to get it made is one of the better solutions. It really needs some legal scrutiny, and some real establishment with the owners of the franchise, for it to ever be legit. It's never felt like we've been dancing on a legal knife-edge but it certainly would if we started a Kickstarter directly for FoY. Hope that answers some of your questions Unai, and feel free to keep the ideas coming I will again dive into the legal mumbo jumbo of Kickstarter style things and see if funding a free game project will strike up massive legal arguments or not.

That said, if anyone does have a spare $200,000 - get in touch, and you can have the game in a few weeks time

[rfii]

Thanks for the response Mark.

You can get around the potential gray area of Kickstarter funding legally changing your non-profit effort to a for profit effort with a fairly simple reorganization:  If you legally form a non-profit entity to assume responsibility for the project, then that entity can solicit donations through Kickstarter for the purpose of finishing the project.  That non-profit entity can then use those funds to pay contractors to finish the project and of course the entity will select your current team members as those contractors (but it could also select be other people as well).   

Actually your current situation soliciting direct donations without a non-profit entity acting as the administrator of the funds could be argued to make your project a for profit venture right now.

As a side bonus to the non-profit entity plan, the entity will to some extent shield you and your team from LucasArts should they ever find out about your project (which I am sure they will sooner or later once its released).

And in terms of your game studio aspirations, that studio would have to be a separate entity obviously, but you could still take credit for your work by claiming Screen 7 games is made up of some of the same team that made FoY.

Lastly and on a somewhat separate note, your project is really ideal for Kickstarter given that you already have tangible progress (the demo, screenshots, animations) to show that your project is of high quality.  I'd also like to personally say that I think your artwork exceeds that of the original LucasArts games.  Great stuff.

[Mark]

Thanks for that rfii, great points and duly noted. We could certainly instate a non-profit organization (like 'The FoY Team' or what not) for the game and remove all links to s7 beyond the same members being part of both entities. And from there I understand the legality better now thanks to your input. I'll need to take this to the team, to see if they're willing or prepared to do it.

It won't hide the fact that s7 made the demo and other items, but beyond the legal business side I'd be willing to embrace any furor that we are making a free game based on the Indy IP. To think, in 12 years, no-one at LEC has noticed FoY, gains "virtually impossible" sigma levels in my mind year after year. But it is still that "going behind their backs" thing that worries me most. That of course isn't the intention, but when you involve money it can be perceived like that.

Still, getting older and wiser. Perhaps I should just talk to someone at LEC and cut a deal You've given me and the others food for thought. If we can properly justify the costs, set it up legally and the team support the idea fully though - there is no reason not to give it a shot. The action plan could be quite straightforward, but there's still a big bit in capital red letters saying NOTIFY LUCASARTS.

That said, if anyone can think of any examples elsewhere that would really help. Any other known setups like this? I can't think of any. All the latest kickstarter campaigns have the IP owners behind them. I can't think of any that are in effect that use anothers IP, in the games industry or any...

With all that in mind, I'll start drafting a campaign, and we can see if the team are interested. And of course, Kickstarter (and other things) do include the option of "no funding if goal isn't met". This would be a golden opportunity, and crowd source funding very well could get the best out of this project. I'm working my way up in kickstarter campaign goals, it's obvious FoY doesn't need 500k like certain campaigns do at the moment, but FoY is no simple little game, so I can see how it might justify a 25 - 100k budget, TBH.

[rfii]

Glad my post was helpful Mark and it's very exciting that this idea could help you guys make the final push to the goal posts.  I'll definitely be your first Kickstarter contributor. 

With regard to approaching LEC, I agree that they probably don't want to be caught off guard.  At the same time, you want to approach them with a crowd behind you that demonstrates that (A) the public has faith in your team producing a quality product and (B) many fans will be angry if LEC issues a C&D over trivialities.  So there are benefits to approaching LEC up front and benefits to building up a large support base first.  While we have all been assuming that money is the number one issue, I think that degradation of the Indy brand image through a crappy product is LEC's primary concern.  They don't want a bad fan product getting confused with a genuine LEC product.  But the quality of your demo and artwork shows you guys are making a product more than worthy of the Indiana Jones brand; however, you can't assume the lawyers/execs will play or appreciate the demo. 

I'd suggest reaching out to some big names in the adventure business (perhaps  former employees of LucasArts, perhaps even Gilbert or Schafer themselves) to get some big name verification that you guys are doing A+ quality work.  These veterans can probably offer you some insight into LEC and the industry in general and perhaps ease your way into LEC's good graces.  Given that you guys have been doing this part time and for non-profit, this approach may seem intimidating but you've put out a product that is of top level quality for the for profit industry.  There's no need to be shy; you've done work on par with industry vets and can show it.

So in sum, I'd suggest:
1)  Re-energize your current fanbase by going into kickstarter-prep mode. Perhaps solicit volunteers for non-development stuff like PR, revamping the site to seem more professional, managing the FB page, money management, business admin stuff, making promotional content, etc.
2)  Reach out to Schafer, Gilbert, and others in the industry who can (A) verify the quality of your product and (B) informally ease your approach to LEC or at least provide advice. This step is key.
3)  Start putting out as much finished FoY content out there as possible to build interest.  Don't worry about artwork spoilers.  Get your fans to help spread it.  This demonstrates transparency in case anyone doubts the quality of your stuff and saves your work in case you do get a C&D.
4)  Approach LEC to give them a heads up on kickstarter.
5) Kickstarter!

Alternatively, you can switch steps 4 and 5 if it sounds like LEC may be reluctant to support you guys.  (With proper legal shielding) better to beg for forgiveness than ask permission, right?     I also can't imagine how they haven't noticed though by now.   Could be one of those things where they just want to look the other way.  Along those lines, an informal approach, like the one outlined above, would be best (so that LEC is semi-aware, but is not obliged to take immediate action for or against). In many cases, lawyers just don't want to give you permission, because doing so forces them to give up their right to intervene in case you guys do something crazy like make Indy a transvestite or some other inane coroporate lawyer fear.  So just give them a heads up, but I don't force them into a decision by asking for formal permission. 

[Grim107]

If I could give my two cents:

I think that contacting Schafer and Gilbert is crucial if you plan to move ahead with a Kickstarter. I'd also look into contacting Hal Barwood. Perhaps it would even be smart to contact David Fox. I know that he still has interest in Zak Mckracken, so he's definitely into adventure gaming.

As far as this project not having been shut down by LucasArts, I really am not sure. As I'm sure you all know, there was a time when LucasArts was known to send out C&D letters. LucasFan was shut down years ago. Since then, they've cooled off, but as soon as money becomes involved, that may change. More than likely, LucasArts has known about this for some time, but tossed it aside as a little fan project. For all they know, the project will fail as do most all other fan games.

While we have all been assuming that money is the number one issue, I think that degradation of the Indy brand image through a crappy product is LEC's primary concern.

You'd think so, but let's not forget Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, Desktop Adventures, Staff of Kings, etc. Indy has been through his fair share of crap.

[Unai]

Wow, I'm so happy that my little snowball has started rolling down the hill...

IP stuff is certainly complicated, so I can't help much there, but I'm glad to see there are others around to help.

I also think contacting other Game creators might be crucial, since they probably have heard about other Fan-game cases and can tell you if contacting LEC is a good idea or a no-no.

[fandango]

While we have all been assuming that money is the number one issue, I think that degradation of the Indy brand image through a crappy product is LEC's primary concern.

You'd think so, but let's not forget Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, Desktop Adventures, Staff of Kings, etc. Indy has been through his fair share of crap.

true, but this crap was done by LEC - the human nature tends to evaluate self-made crap as... charming... while crap made by others as... well... crap. Also, THEY own the merchandise, and if its there decision to make crap, they can do that. if someone else - voluntarily or involuntarily - makes crap, thats a whole different story.

and, no, im not thinking that FoY will be crap

[fandango]

and, on a lighter note, theres a whole lot of "crapping" in that last few posts, mine included :p

[zakmckracken]

Kickstarter or any other crowdfunding for this project is dangerous, and could get you guys sued. Continuing as a free fan project like the King's Quest remakes/Maniac Mansion remakes is the only way to go.

Now if you created your own Kickstarter for an adventure game based on your original characters, then sign me up.

[SilverShadow]

Well probably you could also use kickstarter for some talkie action with Doug Lee.
I think (or hope  ) that we could really do the 10k with kickstarter.

[Norbert]

+1 for Unai's suggestion. A couple of months ago I sent you (goaskindiana@hotmail.co.uk), Hal Barwood, Noah Falstein and various others e-mails suggesting that maybe a Kickstarter campaign or something similar could be used to raise funds for an old-school Indiana Jones game. I didn't read through this entire thread, but I did notice that Mark's summary doesn't include what I suggested at the time, so I will outline the alternative below. My e-mails were quite detailed; what follows is just a summary.

Basically, if you had money to pay LEC to use the Indiana Jones name and likeness, and it would be enough money, you could pretty much keep creative control. Let's say, for instance, that you can get them to agree that $0.5M is enough for the deal and they'll mostly stay away from you. You get credits as the authors of the game, they allow you to release the game. Then you go to Kickstarter and start a fund raising campaign for the amount of money required to use the brand plus whatever money you need to properly finish the game.

LucasArts will find out about your game sooner or later, if they haven't already. What you've created so far is great. Anyone who plays the game or checks one of the video walkthroughs can tell how much effort you've put into the game and how skilled you are. Just tell LucasArts: "You can make money. Let's talk." The Kickstarter route is perfect for your game, because you've already proven what you can do. There have been several successful adventure game Kickstarter projects, but none of these really go "back to the past". For example, even ultra-modern 2D is old-school to these folks simply because it's not 3D.

Indiana Jones is one of the longest running franchises. I don't even think there's any other option than to contact LEC. Maybe ask Hal Barwood (or Noah Falstein) who to contact, maybe ask him to put in a good word for you. When doing the Kickstarter, make sure you are allowed to mention its 'predecessors' Last Crusade and Fate of Atlantis, and play the Indiana Jones music, things like that. If you reach stretch goals, these could be used for extra paths. If they think $0.5M isn't enough - I doubt that - you could discuss selling the game on certain platforms and giving them half the profits or something.

[Edit: Oh, and obviously, start with suggesting something lower, like $100,000. And mention Kickstarter to LEC from the start.]